Carburettors with more depth of discussion

[K2-K6]

To discuss and, hopefully inform, with more in depth discussion of carburettor function and how it relates to these SOHC bikes along with their setup.

[Rozabikes Tim]

Great idea. How about people like yourself copy and pasting some of your previous helpful descriptive posts on the topic to this section Nigel?

[K2-K6]

Great idea. How about people like yourself copy and pasting some of your previous helpful descriptive posts on the topic to this section Nigel?

  literally at just this moment thinking the same to capture items already discussed.

I'm out today with some car bods but will get something done later.

[K2-K6]

In response to the role played by idle jet function specifically around hanging idle effect

I'll try to pick the right wording to describe what their influence is.

Its situational rather than hard rev band or throttle position.  This because the engine is responding to volume of ai, while the carburettor responding primarily to vacuum (the drop below atmosphere via venturi design) therefore it'll flow differently for different situations.

Example is if you rev the engine then drop the throttle instantly/fully, the air volume stops but the vacuum now climbs as the rpm decays according to flywheel energy. That provides a spike in fuel with the slide closed, making it temporarily rich which helps to quench combustion, finally to recover as these two influences equal out. All in a very short space of time. Failure to do that by having  restriction in delivery jet, then it'll go lean, relatively, and promote "hanging" rpm.

Anther example .... if you're approaching a long sweeping bend and go down a couple of gears, throttle off to near closed, then say it's running 5000 rpm that'll be pulling tgrough the idle jets as vacuum is high, this facilitates it going immediately you then open the throttle, if it didn't do that you'd get a flat spot up there that's really annoying as initially it would be lean. So a much higher influence than most would suspect.

It's also why you get popping on overrun if there's an exhaust header leaking air into system. The fuel that's in excess from moving towards rich with throttle closed passes into the exhaust unburnt in some quantity, availability of leaked air then brings that back to combustible in the hot exhaust pipe, and so you get popping from air leak but supplied by excess fuel from idle jets working correctly.

[K2-K6]

The effects described above you can observe, in vacuum terms, when you're running with vac gauges hooked up.

Running at idle, give the throttle a quick blip to lift revs to say 7000 rpm, watch the vacuum drop as the slide comes open, then when you drop it straight away the vacuum hits a high point as slides close with engine rpm still elevated as it's now drawing against a closed venturi.

These are some of the fundamentals that design of carburettor has to work round.

I've referred to fuel injection system sometimes, which may bring the question of "what's that got to do with our bikes ? " to which the answer is, the injection system has to get around the same fuelling idiosyncrasies (it's not working on vacuum to meter fuel ) as carburettor, but with the added detail that each "workaround" has to have a specific method and control regime to achieve.  It just shows a bigger picture in examination of fuelling system and their strategy.

The combustion chamber "sees" only fuel air ratio from either system, being effectively blind to what's delivering that mix.

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

This is not really in-depth more anecdotal evidence.

"I have little experience with no formal qualifications on bikes, with that disclaimer  heres what what I think.

I'm often wrong with a relatively short experience on only two Hondas in the last four years.
I am in my seventh decade of experience on a variety of cars and at the limit of my memory from bikes during the 1960s & 1970s. I do eventually admit when I am wrong.

My perception now seen through the prism of old age & the many posts on this subject is roughly as follows.

These bikes are fitted with four carburetors that at a basic level have two fuel supplies to the engine.

1) The first is what I think of as the idle jet circuit - this supplies fuel not just at idle but at significant amounts as you increase the engine revs with a sort of reducing influence  as the main jets take over.

2) The second fuel supply is the main needle & jets that operate by the sliders.

Assumptions - there are no air leaks on the induction side with standard air cleaners, original jets & needles in good condition. When hot the open & closing throttle cable are working & not binding. The ignition advance/retard is working as it should & timing is spot on at idle & full advance settings.

A hanging throttle is confusing as if the sliders fully  close when you shut off the throttle the engine rpm should fall relatively quickly back to a normal idle as no fuel is being provided by the main jets as the needle is effectively shutting off the fuel supply.

Contrary to logic I believe a hanging throttle is caused by a lack of fuel or conversely too much air supply - a weak mixture at that point as the revs should fall instead  they take a while to drop from say 2,200 rpm to 1200 rpm.

So how does the engine manage to maintain this hanging throttle?

I think it is as a result of a tad too much air passing through the intake under the sliders when the throttle fully closed, this draws fuel via the idler jet circuit as well as an unknown amount from the main jet in some situations.
This might be as a result of 1.2.3 or all 4 sliders being too wide open in the throttle closed position.

It's possible to think you have the air screw spot on when you do the bench sync by reducing the fuel flow by opening the air screw you can get an a false idle. When the engine is up to full running temperature this in my view points to the slider gaps being just that bit too wide. So it's all good when warm but after a fair run the idle gets too fast.

If when the main throttle stop screw is completely undone the sliders are fully closed then as no petrol can get through it will of course not even idle but stop.

I think the trick is getting the least amount of slider gap yet maintaining a tickover contolled by the air screw adjustment only - on a engine that is up to temperature.

I'm waiting for incoming - my shields are up !


Just edited some poor spelling & sentence structure for clarity




Modify message
« Last Edit: October 02, 2024, 03:41:04 AM by McCabe-Thiele (Ted) »

[Johnwebley]

This is really confusing me,

But that's easy,

I recently did some work on my 500,nothing to do with the carbs,

And fitted new carb to head rubbers as the old ones were hard,

Since then, I have had a hanging throttle,

It runs well when cold, but as it warms up ,if I blip the throttle it zooms up to about 4,000rpm,

It can be slowed by pressing the large nut in the linkage,

But why?

I haven't touched the settings,

Help and advice needed

I have the carb sync gauges connected, all read the same,





Sent from my SM-A546E using Tapatalk

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

My suspicion would fall on what's been changed could be air being sucked in between the carbs & the engine I guess you have thought of that ?
Did you remove the alloy part of the inlets or just change the rubbers?
What large nut are you reffering to - the main throttle adjustment screw?

[Johnwebley]

My suspicion would fall on what's been changed could be air being sucked in between the carbs & the engine I guess you have thought of that ?
Did you remove the alloy part of the inlets or just change the rubbers?
What large nut are you reffering to - the main throttle adjustment screw?

I renewed the 4 rubber tubes between the carbs and manifolds,

The 4 large nuts,are In 2 pairs between carbs 1 and 2,and 3 and 4,

Part of the actuation mechanism,



Sent from my SM-A546E using Tapatalk

[DomP]

It must be something to do with Herefordshire air John

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

My suspicion would fall on what's been changed could be air being sucked in between the carbs & the engine I guess you have thought of that ?
Did you remove the alloy part of the inlets or just change the rubbers?
What large nut are you reffering to - the main throttle adjustment screw?

I renewed the 4 rubber tubes between the carbs and manifolds,

The 4 large nuts,are In 2 pairs between carbs 1 and 2,and 3 and 4,

Part of the actuation mechanism,



Sent from my SM-A546E using Tapatalk

If pressing down on the Brass coloured nuts reduced the idle speed then assuming your throttle cables are adjusted correctly and the cable is allowing the throttle the mechanisms to close to their bench set position  then that appears to be an issue with the slider gaps being to wide imho.

[K2-K6]

This is really confusing me,

But that's easy,

I recently did some work on my 500,nothing to do with the carbs,

And fitted new carb to head rubbers as the old ones were hard,

Since then, I have had a hanging throttle,

It runs well when cold, but as it warms up ,if I blip the throttle it zooms up to about 4,000rpm,

It can be slowed by pressing the large nut in the linkage,

But why?

I haven't touched the settings,

Help and advice needed

I have the carb sync gauges connected, all read the same,





Sent from my SM-A546E using Tapatalk

When the throttle is closed, can you "find" any slack in the exposed cable where it arrives at the carburettor quadrant ? Indication of the twistgrip and cable being not the problem.

Something very small, the liner inside the throttle cable where if turns out of the twistgrip, the inner cable eventually cuts through that 90 degree turn making it non linear in operation. 

With the cable removed from bike, and all the inner pulled out the twistgrip end, you can usually pull that little liner out of the cable cover to inspect it. If it's cut through , it makes them quite variable in both actuation and return function.

Honda cables were particularly good in their materials, not so much in reproduction stuff though.

[Johnwebley]

This is really confusing me,

But that's easy,

I recently did some work on my 500,nothing to do with the carbs,

And fitted new carb to head rubbers as the old ones were hard,

Since then, I have had a hanging throttle,

It runs well when cold, but as it warms up ,if I blip the throttle it zooms up to about 4,000rpm,

It can be slowed by pressing the large nut in the linkage,

But why?

I haven't touched the settings,

Help and advice needed

I have the carb sync gauges connected, all read the same,





Sent from my SM-A546E using Tapatalk

When the throttle is closed, can you "find" any slack in the exposed cable where it arrives at the carburettor quadrant ? Indication of the twistgrip and cable being not the problem.

Something very small, the liner inside the throttle cable where if turns out of the twistgrip, the inner cable eventually cuts through that 90 degree turn making it non linear in operation. 

With the cable removed from bike, and all the inner pulled out the twistgrip end, you can usually pull that little liner out of the cable cover to inspect it. If it's cut through , it makes them quite variable in both actuation and return function.

Honda cables were particularly good in their materials, not so much in reproduction stuff though.

The cables are fine,

I even use the "closer" cable to try to drop the revs,



Sent from my SM-A546E using Tapatalk

[K2-K6]

A classic fault finding split would seem necessary to progress.

Mechanical restriction, giving non reliable return .... or .... mixture derived lean running that promotes raised rpm with throttle closed.

Obvious to say, but something must have changed to observe a clear resulting effect.

[K2-K6]

This is not really in-depth more anecdotal evidence.

"I have little experience with no formal qualifications on bikes, with that disclaimer  heres what what I think.

I'm often wrong with a relatively short experience on only two Hondas in the last four years.
I am in my seventh decade of experience on a variety of cars and at the limit of my memory from bikes during the 1960s & 1970s. I do eventually admit when I am wrong.

My perception now seen through the prism of old age & the many posts on this subject is roughly as follows.

These bikes are fitted with four carburetors that at a basic level have two fuel supplies to the engine.

1) The first is what I think of as the idle jet circuit - this supplies fuel not just at idle but at significant amounts as you increase the engine revs with a sort of reducing influence  as the main jets take over.

2) The second fuel supply is the main needle & jets that operate by the sliders.

Assumptions - there are no air leaks on the induction side with standard air cleaners, original jets & needles in good condition. When hot the open & closing throttle cable are working & not binding. The ignition advance/retard is working as it should & timing is spot on at idle & full advance settings.

A hanging throttle is confusing as if the sliders fully  close when you shut off the throttle the engine rpm should fall relatively quickly back to a normal idle as no fuel is being provided by the main jets as the needle is effectively shutting off the fuel supply.

Contrary to logic I believe a hanging throttle is caused by a lack of fuel or conversely too much air supply - a weak mixture at that point as the revs should fall instead  they take a while to drop from say 2,200 rpm to 1200 rpm.

So how does the engine manage to maintain this hanging throttle?

I think it is as a result of a tad too much air passing through the intake under the sliders when the throttle fully closed, this draws fuel via the idler jet circuit as well as an unknown amount from the main jet in some situations.
This might be as a result of 1.2.3 or all 4 sliders being too wide open in the throttle closed position.

It's possible to think you have the air screw spot on when you do the bench sync by reducing the fuel flow by opening the air screw you can get an a false idle. When the engine is up to full running temperature this in my view points to the slider gaps being just that bit too wide. So it's all good when warm but after a fair run the idle gets too fast.

If when the main throttle stop screw is completely undone the sliders are fully closed then as no petrol can get through it will of course not even idle but stop.

I think the trick is getting the least amount of slider gap yet maintaining a tickover contolled by the air screw adjustment only - on a engine that is up to temperature.

I'm waiting for incoming - my shields are up !


Just edited some poor spelling & sentence structure for clarity




Modify message
« Last Edit: October 02, 2024, 03:41:04 AM by McCabe-Thiele (Ted) »

While I can see the reasoning, I think this deserves expansion to understand.

The amount of fuel added to the air going under the slide at idle us adjusted by the routine that Honda gives for setting airscrew idle mixture.  In other words it can't be wrong if its set correctly.

It can go wrong if set badly, or IF the idle circuit, both jet and screw controlled air passage, change after its been correctly set.

In effect, you can't get too much gap under the slide as it should always be proportionately accompanied by the correct amount of fuel. This is exactly what the idle circuit is for.

I intend discussing in carb thread, when I get to this bit

That Honda routine specifically targets fuel air ratio delivered by the idle circuit against the set position of the slide. If that setting then becomes inappropriate, the mixture, for that cylinder, moves out and away form how you've set it and usually lean with the fuel jet orifice being compromised. So you do get too much air, but not from overall position of slide, but failure of delivery fuel jet to maintain flow at defined rate.

To make clear , and I'll shout this bit    THERE'S NO REQUIREMENT TO SET THE AIRSCREW EQUALLY ..... THE HONDA METHOD VERY SPECIFICALLY TARGETS PARITY OF COMBUSTION AND ACCEPTS DIFFERENT SETTINGS FOM CARB  TO CARB ON THE SAME ENGINE.

If you carry out the setting routine to the manual description, it will "show" you if there's any impairment in that specific circuit by needing a setting that just doesn't fit the expected.
It does this by you making observations of the fuel air ratio as you turn the screw and listen to the combustion.

That must be one of the most under used parts of their manuals .... but so important in setup.

Everyone goes straight to carb synchronization, missing the substance and reasoning contained within this little routine that they give.

(Copied over from another thread to facilitate here)